More details on the immersion sensors of Apple, 16/07/2009 - Your reactions

[crispin]

Due to the interest shown in these immersion sensors we decided to take a look in detail into this subject. To start, Apple uses, according to our information, the sensors 3M 5557. 3M put online .pdf files describing these products precisely.







On the photograph above, 3M shows a virgin sensor, and another that has turned red after having been in contact with water.







In this second batch of captured photos, they describe a test. It is seen that the minimum contact of liquid will turn whole or part of the pastille bright red. It is also shown; at the end of 7 days at 55°C and 95% humidity that the pastille changes slightly to pink. It is practically certain that as more time passed, the pinker it would have become, and inevitably reaching vermilion, proof according to 3M of immersion. To finish, note that 3M advises to store these pastilles before use in an environment where the temperature does not exceed the 27°C and with humidity not exceeding 40 to 60%. 3M also indicates that they should be used in the 18 months after their manufacture to have the best performances. Apart from these quoted statements… one does not know. 



Now, let us pass to the Apple side. To start, they now put them everywhere. Here are some examples in photographs.







There are now placed in the iPhone, iPod, portables and even for this year in the keyboards! 



Here is the advice from Apple to the technicians at maintenance centres, who will have to decide if Mac is entitled to be repaired under guarantee or not.

Liquid submersion indicators (LSI) have been added to specific locations on current Mac portables and desktop keyboards to help determine if systems have been exposed to liquid. Damage due to liquid exposure is not covered by the Apple one (1) year limited warranty or the AppleCare Protection Plan (APP)....
The indicators trigger only with direct contact to a liquid. The indicators will not be triggered by temperature and humidity that is within the product's environmental requirements described by Apple. A triggered indicator will turn red or pink, as shown in the examples below, indicating that the module(s) to which the indicator is attached has been exposed to liquid. 
Important: If you see a triggered LSI, inspect all adjacent modules for liquid damage. Components or modules that do not work due to liquid contact are not eligible for warranty service. Furthermore, the resulting damage may be so extensive that the cost of repairing the product may exceed the cost of replacing the product. Inform customers about this possibility.
Customers are responsible for the costs of servicing products that are damaged as a result of liquid contact. This includes, for example, the cost of replacing keyboards that stop working due to liquid spills.

The most interesting part is that which we boldfaced. Apple indicates that these pastilles cannot turn pink without water, which is false after the tests of 3M.  The other point is that Apple states that the colour pink also implied an immersion of the pastille and this is also false. Bright red indicates immersion, pink is able to come from ambient humidity. In short, we fear that a too broad interpretation of the color of these pastilles does not lead Apple to cancel guarantees on machines just due to humidity or of condensation, a thing which can always happen, as all the wearers of glasses will testify!

By crispin, original by Lionel

[mattyohe]

Your interpretation of Apple's technician guidelines is flawed.

You fear that a technician will cancel a guarantee based on the color of the indicator, yet that's not at all how the guidelines actually read. Nowhere does it say: "If you see a triggered LSI (even if only pink), pack it up and give it back to the customer." What it does say is that a device should be further scrutinized if a LSI is triggered.

The LSI is used as a diagnostic tool, and is only present to alert the technician to look for possible water damage. Besides, it is not difficult to spot water damage inside a laptop.

[jwa]

Your interpretation of Apple's technician guidelines is flawed.

The problem is that many Apple Authorised Repair Technicians have the interpretation being presented. This report came up because it is being interpreted this way, not because we think it should be interpreted that way.

[arcanehacker]

Your interpretation of Apple's technician guidelines is flawed.

You fear that a technician will cancel a guarantee based on the color of the indicator, yet that's not at all how the guidelines actually read. Nowhere does it say: "If you see a triggered LSI (even if only pink), pack it up and give it back to the customer." What it does say is that a device should be further scrutinized if a LSI is triggered.

The LSI is used as a diagnostic tool, and is only present to alert the technician to look for possible water damage. Besides, it is not difficult to spot water damage inside a laptop.

Think again.. its a long read but many have been 'victims' of the flawed LSI interpretation or guidelines..

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=2427063

This post has been edited by arcanehacker: Jul 17 2009, 02:39 AM

[gerard]

Actually, it can be difficult to detect liquid damage to a device when drinking water is spilled in it. Drinking (bottled) water is conductive enough to cause component failure but pure enough that once evaporated it will show no easily detectable sigs of existence, this is especially true if you remove all power from the device to prevent electrolysis. If you spill anything sticky, smelly or colored in your computer I will find it but pureish water is hard to detect.

As for the sensors turning pink in high humidity: there's a reason that all of Apple's (all electronics makers really) operating environment limits state "non condensing" such as: 10F-95F 0% to 90% RH non condensing. Even though no water was spilled on the unit, small amounts of water to spontaneously collect on the device causing failure. This is a known issue and you, as the user, are supposed to have enough common sense to know when the air feels "wet".
Taking your iPod from a 75F room to outside where the temperature is 80F and raining will undoubtedly cause condensation on the MLB of the device and failure.
Do you listen to your iPod in the shower on a dock? That's also a condensing situation that will trip the LSI and beyond the operating specs of the device.

The reason Apple did this is that many equipment owners are either stupid, liars or have no sense of personal responsibility.
Examples:
Blood(lots) or vomit inside a computer but statements of "no liquid damage"
iPod stolen and I should replace it under warranty.
The uncountable number of people who don't understand that dropping a notebook can cause it to fail weeks later, it's not always instant.

Apple's warranties are against manufacturer's defects and failures during normal use, not customer abuse or mishandling or extreme environmental conditions. The LSIs are just another tool to objectively show that the customer broke the rules. Breaking the rules has consequences and Apple's not the responsible party in those cases.

If you want your equipment covered for your carelessness or stupidity then get an insurance plan to cover your actions.

This post has been edited by gerard: Jul 19 2009, 05:22 PM

[linathael]

Actually, it can be difficult to detect liquid damage to a device when drinking water is spilled in it. Drinking (bottled) water is conductive enough to cause component failure but pure enough that once evaporated it will show no easily detectable sigs of existence, this is especially true if you remove all power from the device to prevent electrolysis. If you spill anything sticky, smelly or colored in your computer I will find it but pureish water is hard to detect.

As for the sensors turning pink in high humidity: there's a reason that all of Apple's (all electronics makers really) operating environment limits state "non condensing" such as: 10F-95F 0% to 90% RH non condensing. Even though no water was spilled on the unit, small amounts of water to spontaneously collect on the device causing failure. This is a known issue and you, as the user, are supposed to have enough common sense to know when the air feels "wet".
Taking your iPod from a 75F room to outside where the temperature is 80F and raining will undoubtedly cause condensation on the MLB of the device and failure.
Do you listen to your iPod in the shower on a dock? That's also a condensing situation that will trip the LSI and beyond the operating specs of the device.

The reason Apple did this is that many equipment owners are either stupid, liars or have no sense of personal responsibility.
Examples:
Blood(lots) or vomit inside a computer but statements of "no liquid damage"
iPod stolen and I should replace it under warranty.
The uncountable number of people who don't understand that dropping a notebook can cause it to fail weeks later, it's not always instant.

Apple's warranties are against manufacturer's defects and failures during normal use, not customer abuse or mishandling or extreme environmental conditions. The LSIs are just another tool to objectively show that the customer broke the rules. Breaking the rules has consequences and Apple's not the responsible party in those cases.

If you want your equipment covered for your carelessness or stupidity then get an insurance plan to cover your actions.

thanks for your comments.
I understand your points, but you tend to think that all customers with a pink/red sensor are liars when claiming they did not drop their iPod or iPhone into the toilette?
We all know that stating non condensing is clearly to define non extreme conditions, however it should not prevent us to use your devices the way we want and void the warranty because we went snowboarding with an iPhone in our pocket? I did it with my previous mobile phone, and will do it again with my iPhone. If it makes my iPhone sensor turning red, I will bring Apple to court, as my claims for having used my iPhone in reasonable ways is as valid as Apple's claims regarding operating environment limits.
I never had problem to make any electronic devices under warranty to be replaced without hassle, and if it ever happens in the future with Apple I hope to be able to say the same thing. Friends of us is working in tropical regions, where humidity can reach 95-100% depending on the season, so this should then prevent him to work with a computer or get an iPod/iPhone, because even under normal usage the sensors will turn pink/red. So, this is our point here, those sensors should be used as a sign to further investigate and not as a proof to deny warranty and avoid Apple to recognize hardware failure as soon as the sensor is not white.

[golfnut]

Hello,
I thought it might be useful for me to add my comments on the LSI's as I unfortunately have some experience with them in my wife's iPhone. I look after my iPhone well but my wife is even more careful. Twice now she has had a fault with her phone not working and twice has been refused replacement due to a slightly discoloured LSI. I understand some people may try to get a replacement product when they are not entitled and the LSI's may have a part to play. However, my frustration with the LSI's are as follows:
1. It is AUTOMATIC and definite that if one of the LSI's is not totally white service is refused under warranty. It is NOT a starting point it is a dead end finishing point as far as Apple is concerned. Both times I was told warranty could not be honoured specifically due to the LSI being discoloured.
2. Neither of my wife's phones have been anywhere near water. The only possibility is that the first time a stray drop of water MAY have against all odds hit the headphone socket. The phone was not mistreated or misused but IF this happened would be considered normal use for a commercial device. Surely a phone should be able to cope with a drop of water IF this happened.
3. If a phone was immersed in water (which is the presumption if an LSI is not white) then surely the LSI would be totally red not just pink or slightly discoloured.
4. If the phone was immersed in water the surely both (all) LSI's would be totally red. We were refused service both times due to only one LSI being discoloured.

I have no problems at all with Apple trying to protect itself against inappropriate warranty claims but what about some common sense and logic. If a phone has been in water then BOTH LSI's will be TOTALLY red surely. This idea of refusing a claim because one LSI is a bit pink is ridiculous both in relation to my wife's phones and in light of the 3M material. The 3M material makes a lot of sense to me as it fits perfectly with my wifes well looked after phones and their slightly pink LSI's.

P.S. I am a very long term happy Apple user (since the Mac Plus for those interested) but these LSI's need sorting out. After MUCH complaining, arguing, use of logic etc both phones were eventually replaced. My arguing was on principle as the phones were insured. If Apple wants to use LSI's to refuse warranty then surely their policy must be that (especially in a small product like the iPhone) all LSI's must be totally red.

[gerard]

So the basis of your claim is that because you've used your electronic devices in what you consider extreme environments and they broke because of that but you got them replaced anyway, that Apple's ability to now detect those extreme environments is unfair?
That's like saying that because you used to be able to speed at 50mph over the speed limit, but now the police have the ability to detect and punish that behavior that the detection is unfair and illegal.
Apple always had the rules. Now they have a tool to detect your abuse. Deal with it.
And yes, your phone in your pocket while you ski is almost certain to get the phone wet between sweat, condensation and melting snow.
It is not easy to trigger the LSIs in Apple's equipment. It takes prolonged contact with water or even more prolonged exposure to out-of-spec conditions.

We all know that stating non condensing is clearly to define non extreme conditions, however it should not prevent us to use your devices the way we want and void the warranty because we went snowboarding with an iPhone in our pocket? I did it with my previous mobile phone, and will do it again with my iPhone. If it makes my iPhone sensor turning red, I will bring Apple to court, as my claims for having used my iPhone in reasonable ways is as valid as Apple's claims regarding operating environment limits.
I never had problem to make any electronic devices under warranty to be replaced without hassle, and if it ever happens in the future with Apple I hope to be able to say the same thing. Friends of us is working in tropical regions, where humidity can reach 95-100% depending on the season, so this should then prevent him to work with a computer or get an iPod/iPhone, because even under normal usage the sensors will turn pink/red. So, this is our point here, those sensors should be used as a sign to further investigate and not as a proof to deny warranty and avoid Apple to recognize hardware failure as soon as the sensor is not white.

[linathael]

So the basis of your claim is that because you've used your electronic devices in what you consider extreme environments and they broke because of that but you got them replaced anyway, that Apple's ability to now detect those extreme environments is unfair?
That's like saying that because you used to be able to speed at 50mph over the speed limit, but now the police have the ability to detect and punish that behavior that the detection is unfair and illegal.
Apple always had the rules. Now they have a tool to detect your abuse. Deal with it.
And yes, your phone in your pocket while you ski is almost certain to get the phone wet between sweat, condensation and melting snow.
It is not easy to trigger the LSIs in Apple's equipment. It takes prolonged contact with water or even more prolonged exposure to out-of-spec conditions.

this is the way you interpret it, and not really what I say. I do not think we all have a humidity sensor 24h/day with us to ensure that our Mac or iPhone will be in the right conditions to be used. I do not pretend that Apple should not try to find ways to avoid having to replace units sent for repair while they have been mistreated of dump into water, however on the other side, the system has to be secure and not be interpreted by Apple repair centers as a 0 or 1 scenario for rejecting/accepting devices under warranty.
If LSI should be triggered if you have the iPhone in your pocket while going skiing, then Apple should mention that you can not take the iPhone with you when temperature goes below 5 or 10°C, as potential condensation could make LSI switching from white to red.

overall I do not think we strongly oppose, you are probably an Apple engineer trying to explain why it is important for Apple to have a system to avoid repairing mistreated devices, and it is fine for me, so far it is considered as an information when looking for signs of evidences for immersion in water/sea/etc... and not as a proof; because experiments from our side, and other sources have shown that without mistreating an iPhone, you can get LSI red.

[ipodtouch]

If the IPOD environmental conditions are 95% relative humidity and 95 degrees here are some things that you should not do to your IPOD
1) Take it to the beach as teh temperature is too high
2) Wear it on an arm band while you are jogging, your skin temperature is too high and the humidity immediately next to sweating skin is over 95%
3) Put it in a gym bag after working out. While there is no standing water in a gym bag, the humidity level in a zippered gym bag that has sweaty clothes will be too high
4) Take it into a locker room. Many locker rooms have separate areas for lockers and showers and if the steam from the showers drifts over to the locker youare using you are in an area of condensing humidity

Bottom line, if you want your IPOD to last enjoy it in the comfort of an environmentally controlled house and do not use it at the beach, at the gym, or while working out